My veganism is a nonnegotiable ethical and spiritual stance, and I’m not interested in anyone’s opinions about veganism, because veganism is a deeply personal choice. Politically, I am against factory farming and the horrific conditions under which billions of animals live and die. I want those who eat animals to take up the fight against factory farms because it is far more their fight than mine, since I will never eat animals under any circumstances. I also think that those who believe that there are people who must eat animals for health reasons need to think seriously about what that will look like on a planet with our population size, given the climate and environmental impact of mass animal agriculture. I don’t believe there is any way to produce so much animal based food, enough that 8 billion people could eat animals daily, without extreme environmental impact, as well as the ethical atrocity of the mass suffering of animals. I don’t believe arguments that say we need to eat animals for health because I am healthy and vegan, and I am well read on nutrition and know that a plant based diet is healthy. But if there are people who insist that eating animals is necessary for health it is on them to grapple with the question of how to ethically and sustainably eat animals given the population size. That is an important conversation but not one that concerns me, because I will always be a vegan.
First of all, to be clear, I don’t like getting into long discussions in my comment section. I don’t have the time for it and I don’t find it a productive way to engage in discourse.
This conversation started as a response to my plea that we recognize the sentience of animals and stop inflicting horrible levels of torture upon them. On that, we seem to agree.
I am not a farmer or a food systems person and can’t get into a debate about what farming systems should look like. I am not a vegan who believes it is always immoral to kill animals for food, as I have said in my work many times. We are animals and I accept that some animals eat other animals. I never will because it has been made extremely clear to me that it would be wrong for me to do so and I do not want to in my most fundamental being. This is a spiritual stance. But, I am in favour of people who eat animals thinking about how to do that in more ethical and sustainable ways.
While not an expert on the topic, I do know that grains and soy are fed to farmed animals in huge amounts and then those animals are killed and fed to people. So it stands to reason that severely decreasing animal foods would be a much better use of resources. Farming animals on farmed plants is more resource intensive than simply farming plants. All the issues with plant farming are still there with animal farming plus more. Under capitalism.
I think soil regeneration sounds very important and the idea that plants eats animals is very compelling. I don’t think this necessitates killing animals for food. There’s a logical gap there. We also produce manure, and we also die. Our bodies and bodily products could also go back to the earth. I wonder if that has been considered in all of this.
Again, I’m not an expert and this is not my field. I’d love to read more but a book called ‘the vegetarian myth’ is not appealing to me, and the insistence that a vegan diet is unhealthy does not hold up. I’ve read many research based nutrition studies and plant based is extremely healthy when done well.
I also don’t appreciate the many assumptions about my stance implied in these comments. The idea that vegans don’t ‘go deep’ on these topics. My vegan ethics are actually very deeply considered and complex and contain a deep recognition and reverence for predators in the ecosystem. I will write more about this at some point. But I don’t like unpacking everything in a comments section.
We must be able to defend the sentience of farmed animals and their right not to be tortured without answering all the complexities of how we will farm food in a sustainable way. All farming performed under the logic of capitalism will be bad for the earth but the impacts of animal agriculture on climate are staggering. And the necessity of defending sentient beings from torture is imperative regardless of anything else.
Thanks for the image of plants eating animals. I will take that with me. All the best.
Thanks, I appreciate that. Veganism is to me what religion is to other people — it is my deepest spiritual commitment and very much in alignment with my belief in seeing the singularity of each being. I think a lot of vegans feel this way and I think people who eat animals who want to engage vegans on this topic should remember that. There’s two levels: a political one and a spiritual one. And the political one is in many ways animated by the spiritual one but is distinct. I’m allll for rewilding (I’m team half earth honestly) and regenerative farming / permaculture is an extremely necessary and important topic that I think can work in tandem with veganism. That’s all for now! But I’m definitely open to more books recs in the future on farming etc.
After a quick google I can see that the topic of vegan regenerative farming and permaculture already exists with lots of people thinking about and practicing soil regeneration without exploiting or even killing animals. I’ll definitely be reading more about it.
This is so amazing to read. I was slowly leaving social media, saw your post about fave books of 2023, read Stolen Focus, and then slammed the door on it. I cannot believe how much my LIFE has changed. I’ve gone through the same experience with reading books. I can’t get over how much depth I was missing, how my brain processes information now, and how much happier my nervous system is. I am having so much fun LEARNING again. I’m also sober (drugs & alcohol), but now I’m back to truly being *emotionally* sober. For anyone questioning leaving, I can’t recommend it enough.
Definitely doing more books than social media this year while recovering from long COVID and enjoying the space. I also have been connecting with friends I know are readers, suggesting them a favorite of mine and reading a favorite of theirs, then we will often text each other during our read and connect afterwards and it's such a beautiful way to bond with humans you love.
Loved getting these bite sized reviews! Can't read them all but one or two are definitely going on my list. Right now it's "Rest As Resistance" which I'm excited for, cuz I really need to let that sink in. My Inner Achiever (who thinks we get self worth by achieving, not just existing) has been so studious and helped me do so much but she needs some love and comfort and time to rest and play.
Oh and so glad Jay got you onto the Pratchett train! A friend did that for me also and I've been delighted by every book; Wee Free Men is the most recent, the story about an aspiring witch, and this witch-going-wizard book sounds like would be the perfect complement for me to read.
You inspired me to quit social media. I'm on day 7 now, and I echo everything you have said. I read before, but now I'm really READING. I feel so immersed in it, so connected! I've had ideas for writing, and I haven't written in years! Everything is slower and more spacious. I'm filling that space with things that are joyful. All the annoying social justice rhetoric that I would consume masochistcally, deriving some sick pleasure in infuriating myself, is gone from life! It sure as hell hasn't shown up here in the real world yet, and that shit was taking hours a day from me! I too have missed keeping abreast of world affairs though, so thank you for sharing that news app recommendation. Somewhat hesitant to invite the world back in and risk of having this new found peace disturbed, but I know I can't handicap myself in that way forever. Ultimately, I do care about my fellow humans, even if they are a disruptive bunch!
I'm really looking forward to your podcast about AMB's book. I'm sooooo tired of the narratives that tell us that humans need to earn our dignity. And I will die on the hill of inherent worth and value and infinite possibility for redeemability of every being.
And thank you for the book recs! I quit social media cold turkey following a particularly powerful plant medicine journey last summer. It truly feels like I gained back agency over my own brain and body. Never going back. I now get to enjoy writers like you here on SS!
My veganism is a nonnegotiable ethical and spiritual stance, and I’m not interested in anyone’s opinions about veganism, because veganism is a deeply personal choice. Politically, I am against factory farming and the horrific conditions under which billions of animals live and die. I want those who eat animals to take up the fight against factory farms because it is far more their fight than mine, since I will never eat animals under any circumstances. I also think that those who believe that there are people who must eat animals for health reasons need to think seriously about what that will look like on a planet with our population size, given the climate and environmental impact of mass animal agriculture. I don’t believe there is any way to produce so much animal based food, enough that 8 billion people could eat animals daily, without extreme environmental impact, as well as the ethical atrocity of the mass suffering of animals. I don’t believe arguments that say we need to eat animals for health because I am healthy and vegan, and I am well read on nutrition and know that a plant based diet is healthy. But if there are people who insist that eating animals is necessary for health it is on them to grapple with the question of how to ethically and sustainably eat animals given the population size. That is an important conversation but not one that concerns me, because I will always be a vegan.
First of all, to be clear, I don’t like getting into long discussions in my comment section. I don’t have the time for it and I don’t find it a productive way to engage in discourse.
This conversation started as a response to my plea that we recognize the sentience of animals and stop inflicting horrible levels of torture upon them. On that, we seem to agree.
I am not a farmer or a food systems person and can’t get into a debate about what farming systems should look like. I am not a vegan who believes it is always immoral to kill animals for food, as I have said in my work many times. We are animals and I accept that some animals eat other animals. I never will because it has been made extremely clear to me that it would be wrong for me to do so and I do not want to in my most fundamental being. This is a spiritual stance. But, I am in favour of people who eat animals thinking about how to do that in more ethical and sustainable ways.
While not an expert on the topic, I do know that grains and soy are fed to farmed animals in huge amounts and then those animals are killed and fed to people. So it stands to reason that severely decreasing animal foods would be a much better use of resources. Farming animals on farmed plants is more resource intensive than simply farming plants. All the issues with plant farming are still there with animal farming plus more. Under capitalism.
I think soil regeneration sounds very important and the idea that plants eats animals is very compelling. I don’t think this necessitates killing animals for food. There’s a logical gap there. We also produce manure, and we also die. Our bodies and bodily products could also go back to the earth. I wonder if that has been considered in all of this.
Again, I’m not an expert and this is not my field. I’d love to read more but a book called ‘the vegetarian myth’ is not appealing to me, and the insistence that a vegan diet is unhealthy does not hold up. I’ve read many research based nutrition studies and plant based is extremely healthy when done well.
I also don’t appreciate the many assumptions about my stance implied in these comments. The idea that vegans don’t ‘go deep’ on these topics. My vegan ethics are actually very deeply considered and complex and contain a deep recognition and reverence for predators in the ecosystem. I will write more about this at some point. But I don’t like unpacking everything in a comments section.
We must be able to defend the sentience of farmed animals and their right not to be tortured without answering all the complexities of how we will farm food in a sustainable way. All farming performed under the logic of capitalism will be bad for the earth but the impacts of animal agriculture on climate are staggering. And the necessity of defending sentient beings from torture is imperative regardless of anything else.
Thanks for the image of plants eating animals. I will take that with me. All the best.
Thanks, I appreciate that. Veganism is to me what religion is to other people — it is my deepest spiritual commitment and very much in alignment with my belief in seeing the singularity of each being. I think a lot of vegans feel this way and I think people who eat animals who want to engage vegans on this topic should remember that. There’s two levels: a political one and a spiritual one. And the political one is in many ways animated by the spiritual one but is distinct. I’m allll for rewilding (I’m team half earth honestly) and regenerative farming / permaculture is an extremely necessary and important topic that I think can work in tandem with veganism. That’s all for now! But I’m definitely open to more books recs in the future on farming etc.
After a quick google I can see that the topic of vegan regenerative farming and permaculture already exists with lots of people thinking about and practicing soil regeneration without exploiting or even killing animals. I’ll definitely be reading more about it.
This is so amazing to read. I was slowly leaving social media, saw your post about fave books of 2023, read Stolen Focus, and then slammed the door on it. I cannot believe how much my LIFE has changed. I’ve gone through the same experience with reading books. I can’t get over how much depth I was missing, how my brain processes information now, and how much happier my nervous system is. I am having so much fun LEARNING again. I’m also sober (drugs & alcohol), but now I’m back to truly being *emotionally* sober. For anyone questioning leaving, I can’t recommend it enough.
Definitely doing more books than social media this year while recovering from long COVID and enjoying the space. I also have been connecting with friends I know are readers, suggesting them a favorite of mine and reading a favorite of theirs, then we will often text each other during our read and connect afterwards and it's such a beautiful way to bond with humans you love.
Loved getting these bite sized reviews! Can't read them all but one or two are definitely going on my list. Right now it's "Rest As Resistance" which I'm excited for, cuz I really need to let that sink in. My Inner Achiever (who thinks we get self worth by achieving, not just existing) has been so studious and helped me do so much but she needs some love and comfort and time to rest and play.
Oh and so glad Jay got you onto the Pratchett train! A friend did that for me also and I've been delighted by every book; Wee Free Men is the most recent, the story about an aspiring witch, and this witch-going-wizard book sounds like would be the perfect complement for me to read.
You inspired me to quit social media. I'm on day 7 now, and I echo everything you have said. I read before, but now I'm really READING. I feel so immersed in it, so connected! I've had ideas for writing, and I haven't written in years! Everything is slower and more spacious. I'm filling that space with things that are joyful. All the annoying social justice rhetoric that I would consume masochistcally, deriving some sick pleasure in infuriating myself, is gone from life! It sure as hell hasn't shown up here in the real world yet, and that shit was taking hours a day from me! I too have missed keeping abreast of world affairs though, so thank you for sharing that news app recommendation. Somewhat hesitant to invite the world back in and risk of having this new found peace disturbed, but I know I can't handicap myself in that way forever. Ultimately, I do care about my fellow humans, even if they are a disruptive bunch!
I'm really looking forward to your podcast about AMB's book. I'm sooooo tired of the narratives that tell us that humans need to earn our dignity. And I will die on the hill of inherent worth and value and infinite possibility for redeemability of every being.
And thank you for the book recs! I quit social media cold turkey following a particularly powerful plant medicine journey last summer. It truly feels like I gained back agency over my own brain and body. Never going back. I now get to enjoy writers like you here on SS!
I love reading recommendations! I put a few on my to-read list, thanks. And I'm happy you enjoyed To Paradise! :)